What is True?

Spandrell

So let me follow up on my last post on Sam Harris vs. Jordan Peterson, and what constitutes a solid epistemology. The podcast itself is quite painful to listen to, and Jordan Peterson doesn´t do much of an argument there. I think the guy doesn't do debates well. He's best when you let him speak for hours. Just give him a mike and let him ramble. He'll get somewhere. You'll notice he doesn't use notes when he speaks, he improvises all the time.

That's impressive, but there's a reason why most good intellectual output, like for example this blog, is done on writing. We're kinda losing that, now with the popularity of podcasts and Youtube videos with men speaking in pseudoprofound voice tones. You can get away with being incoherent and contradicting yourself in speech if you push the appropriate emotional buttons frequently enough. But in writing you have to make logical sense, else people will stop reading. The Greeks realized that pretty soon; they'd go in the Agora and make some sophist speech, and they'd get famous, because even if people don't like what you're saying, they can't help hearing you blabber, and odds are you'll say some good line sooner or later, and people can't help remembering that one line that made sense.

Anyway, the reason I like Jordan Peterson is, besides because he has balls of steel and refuses to bow down to the latest bout of the leftist singularity, where a law has been passed in Ontario saying that self-styled transexuals can demand you to refer to them with whatever pronoun they wish, on punishment of a $100,000 fine or something. Now, I've been against leftists since way before this; if I were a Interview with the Vampire character I would have started opposing leftism around 1880 or so. But as a linguist, playing with language is a 是可忍孰不可忍 moment. You don't play with words. And you especially don't fucking play with closed-class words. That's evil. But I digress.

The reason I respect Prof. Peterson intellectually is because he understands evolutionary psychology, he understands pragmatic philosophy, and he's even read his Wittgenstein. Now that is quite something. Ever since he completely demolished traditional philosophy and linguistics in 1953, poor Wittgenstein has been totally ignored by the intellectual establishment. That's no wonder, philosophers like having a job, as do linguists, and understanding Wittgenstein basically means you should go home, shut up, and take a job in the private sector. It's much more lucrative to just keep going with the bullshit and pretending nobody has noticed that it's precisely that: misunderstanding how language works and sounding arcane so that nobody actually notices what you're blabbering about. Nobody besides your fellow philosophers who, of course, have a vested interest in keeping the racket going.

The key insight of Wittgenstein is that speech is a kind of a game. You agree on a set of rules, e.g. that the word "apple" stands for a certain kind of fruit, and you agree to use that word to refer to that fruit. But games, like most human social interactions, are a local thing. There's no universal set of rules, and you can come up with a different set of rules with other people. Kinda like good friends sometimes may modify the rules of their card games just went playing among themselves. So you can use the word "apple" to refer to apples, but with some other group you can use the word "apple" to refer to the breasts of women, or whatever. The thing often gets out of hand, as in things like Cockney rhyming slang. The point being that words don't have "meaning", they only have patterns of use in certain contexts, governed by local sets of rules. Understanding those rules is a form of sociology.

If you can only watch one clip by Jordan Peterson, it should be this one. I'll say more: just watch this one clip, you can skip the others. Sorry Jordan, no disrespect, but you're making enough money. This video is by far the most insightful. Here he explains how human society is in fact just a collection of overlapping games, and what we call morality is just the rules of the game(s). This is not a new idea. Confucius didn't call it "game", he called it "ritual". Plenty of people, most infamously communists, have seized upon this idea to argue that political power can change the rules of the social game in order to change people's behavior. To some extent that is true, but game rules aren't completely arbitrary. A game to be a game has to be playable. And that puts severe limits in what kind of rules it can have. The game has to be playable. It has to work. There are natural limits to that. Which brings us back to Gnon's law. But do listen to him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcmWssTLFv0

From 30:00 there's a fairly good, if rather unfocused, exposition of pragmatic philosophy. Humans have brains; brains have evolved in order to survive and reproduce. It follows that while your brain has to perceive external reality, it only has to do so to the extent that it allows you to survive and reproduce. Once it has gone to that level it's quite free to evolve in ways that make you completely oblivious of it. Or at least unaware of reality's details. Humans being a social species, survival and reproduction depends on your social status inside the group. So if for some reason the group has decided that that animal isn't edible, even though all evidence tells you it is, you better believe it's not edible, else the group is going to murder you, skin you and put your head in a pike. Hence groupthink.

That's one part. The other part, which necessarily follows, is that you can never be sure of your knowledge. You have some ideas in your brain, how do you know which are true and which aren't? David Hume said it well, you never know what's going to happen. All you have is some confidence that things that happened before with some frequency are going to happen again. What Hume missed is that there's a reason why habit makes you have that confidence. Kant kinda got halfway there, but the very reason why "custom" basically stands as knowledge is that, well, humans have evolved over millions of years that propensity to take habit of perception to stand for the laws of nature. And they have evolved that because it pretty much works like that. To put it in other words, you don't really "have ideas in your brain". Your brain is not a hard-disk. What your brain has is a proclivity to modify its behavior in order to expect that things that happened before on a certain sequence will happen again, which is a good approximation of causality.

Being skeptical of knowledge at this level is just being an ass (David Hume had good reasons for being an ass). All living beings understand causality at the behavioral level because causality is real. If it weren't, we wouldn't be here. We wouldn't have survived and reproduced. Causality is true because it works. That's what "true" means, as Jordan Peterson wants to put it.

But again, your human brain has also evolved so that if your tribe says you gotta put a lip-plate  or some ghost is going to snatch your husband's penis, well you're gonna put a lip-plate and make sure every single friend of yours does so too. So we're back to square one. Epistemology is hard. What is true? Is causality true, contra Hume? Well you bet it is. Is true the fact that failing to put a lip-plate will make your husband lose his penis? Well many Nilotic tribesmen say it is. Passionately so. Why? It works for them. By Jordan Peterson's argument, it is true. I don't think it's true.

Again, epistemology is hard. Given how brains work, and how the brains of social species work, there is just no way to set up a complete set of axioms. You can propose a One God that does that for you; but we don't have that, and even if we did, social factions would soon start to twist the definitions of things to fuck with their enemies. So we don't only need a One God, we need a One God which is constantly coming down to earth to make sure that we don't change the agreements we had on what is real. That we don't have. All we can do is make an agreement among ourselves, fallen humans, on what is true, what is not, and how to go find it. That's what we have right now, actually, with most scientific minded people agreeing that the best standard of truth is predictive power. You'll notice that is similar to the animal instinct of assuming causality after confirmation of predictive validity. It works pretty well.

So we non-Sudanese lip-plate wearers, have this rule among ourselves, to assume an objective reality independent of subjective hangups, and to test the truth of theories according to experimentation, observability and predictive power. This rule is, again, a kind of game. It is a good game. A playable game. A very productive game.

So when Jordan Peterson says that the concept of "truth" shouldn't be just applied to objective reality, but should be modified so to aid the flourishing of human existence, whatever that means, he's proposing we change the rules of the game. Of this particular game, which we call the English language, in which the word "truth" is generally used to mean conformity to external reality. He makes it sound as if some cabal of scientists conspire together to change the meaning of the word so that it excluded subjectivity and religion and whatnot. Well, no, it wasn't like that. The word "truth" has always excluded subjectivity. In English and in all languages I'm aware of, which are quite a few. That doesn't mean some groups of people, like say Christian theologians, didn't have their local rules where they used the word to refer to unfalsifiable and honestly quite bizarre claims. But that wasn't about claiming a new sense for the word. They really meant that their stuff was also objective reality. If only to signal that they had the power to get away with any sort of absurd claim.

Even the Sudanese lip-plate guys actually think that ghosts are objectively real and they actually snatch the penises of dissenters. They don't think it's "true enough" for the purposes of tribal cohesion. So you can't change the rules of the "truth" game even if you wanted to. I get it that he wants to stop Communist scientists from crossing Ebola with Smallpox. But the way to do that is not by changing the rules of the language and epistemology game. To the extent that that's even possible; you can't mess with one word and expect the others to stay the same. Language is a self-referential network. You change one node and the other nodes shift too. Often in unpredictable ways.

Now, I'm a friend of Jordan Peterson. I agree with his dislike of modern society. I agree there's lots of problems. Lots of nihilism and mental illness and despair. Society is going to hell. Sure enough. But that's not because of the overzealous objectivism of the scientific establishment. Again, Prof. Peterson is being attacked by Gender Scholars. The problem with science is not that it insists in analyzing objective reality. The problem is that the scientific method only works when observation is reliable. Which worked well in earlier physics and biology. But the prestige of science made us come up with things which just can't be measured with any reliability. Economics. Psychology. Climate science. Much of medical science. It's just too complicated to take any reliable data on much of it. And we refuse to admit that we don't know much about it, and that we can't know much about it. It is not possible. There is only one ancient intellectual discipline which hasn't been made into a science: history. It can't be done. The data just isn't there. And historians always understood that. There was this healthy skepticism about "history is written by the victors". You had to take it with a grain of salt. But it has its value nonetheless.

Instead of understanding Economics, or Climate Science any other intellectual disciplines as being the same sort of intellectually dubious and politically charged discipline as history is, we have deluded ourselves into thinking they are epistemologically sound sciences such as physics or chemistry. No, they are not. And they can't be. And it's ok. We just have to stop spending billions on them and using them to justify public policy. Yet again history is used to justify public policy all the time.

That half, or 80%, or 90% of modern science is bullshit that doesn't replicate, and obfuscates more than reveals, is a problem of our modern scientific establishment, not of the scientific method itself. And most certainly not of the idea of "truth", which again, predates science by millennia, and is a very important foundation of human sociability. Even if Prof. Peterson were to get his way and change the definition; which would require Stalinist levels of social influence; people would soon invent another word to refer that stuff to that stuff out there which doesn't depend on our subjectivity: the Truth. That's a good game.

Let me finish with some Chinese history. I wrote about this before. During the last stages of the Jurchen-Chinese war, in the 1140s. General Yue Fei, the most successful Chinese general, was arrested for plotting a coup against the emperor. One of his fellow generals, Han Shizhong, run towards the prime minister, Qin Hui, at court. He then asked him: "What is this thing about Yue Fei plotting a coup? Is any of this true?".

The prime minister, laconically answered: "It doesn't have to be".

By which he meant, the emperor wants him dead, so the hell cares anyway. Note that he didn't say "it's true enough".

Now after reading all this, you can listen to Prof. Peterson make his truth argument at length. Tell me what you think of it now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Ys4tQPRis

What is True? | @the_arv

[] What is True? []

Alfred Woenselaer

If Jordan were really into truth he would pay homage to Moldbug and Jim. He does not pay homage, does not seem to even know them, therefore not into truth. It is closer to the truth to say he is a good hypnotist, which explains why the Sam Harris debate was a fluke - Sam refuses being hypnotised. Which is to say I agree with everything you say, fellow philosopher. https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTrtc227Z\_oCwkYKfUWfQBaHNZeSbGLlzvp6xyoYoTojVNLa9yE

Alfred Woenselaer

Image.. https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder90/500x/21666090.jpg

Steel T Post

Some years ago, my study of Wittgenstein led me to this: "It's not by chance that the word spell has this double meaning - to cast a spell, or to arrange the letters in the correct order to spell out a word. ... to be able to arrange the letters in the right order, to actually conjure, as it were, that thing that you just spelled—it was experienced by oral peoples, who had not met the written word before, as magic, as a very powerful form of magic." The Spell of Literacy Dr. David Abram childrenofthecode.org/interviews/abram.htm So what is truth, it it can be conveyed only by casting a spell?

What is True? | Reaction Times

[] Source: Bloody Shovel []

false

"most good intellectual output, like for example this blog" lol "But in writing you have to make logical sense, else people will stop reading." Blatantly false.

Candide III

I'm probably the only regular here who can understand 是可忍孰不可忍. You might want to decipher for non-readers of Classical Chinese.

Alfred
Replying to:
Steel T Post

That makes sense and is pretty cool.

Frank

Peterson intuits, like our host Spandrel, that religion is sine qua non of a people, culture, civilization. Christianity being West's official religion for a millennium and a half, and given the fact that religions don't come out ex-nihilo (so we don't get to choose a designer religion) he deduces that West won't survive without Christianity. Peterson sees that people need to believe in a memeplex that makes them functional (i.e. have families, reproduce), and that provides moral license to defend their culture with certitude. You only get certitude when you think your belief is true as much as the theory of gravity is true. In other words, Peterson wants to be able to proclaim that Christianity is true, with as much certitude as when Sam Harris declares Christianity untrue--based, of course, on ¡Science!--with his well paced and unwarrantedly self-assured manner of speech. Since God is dead, and Christianity is obviously not true--at least in the usual sense of the word 'true'--his solution is to modify the meaning of the word 'true'. He won't give up this strategy, because saving dead fathers from the underworld (Christianity being West's dead father) is at the core of his central narrative, which narrative he's been presumably crafting for a very, very long time, and thus now partially constitutes the foundation of his identity. So he won't change his mind about this language strategy any time sooner than Nick Land defects against Skynet. Maybe he should use a more benign word, like, 'real'. "God is as real as money." Much more defendable imo. Peterson would make a tremendous prophet of Gnon, alas, the memes that narrate his life seem to have locked him in on a different quest.

Spandrell
Replying to:
false

Happens to me.

Spandrell
Replying to:
Frank

Yes, that's likely it. But the way to revive Christianity is to do what the few remaining Christians do and insist in the literal truth of the Bible. Just say it's true, the way your lunch is true. Or at least go mildly agnostic. I always find that's the best way to counter people atheists like Sam Harris. How do you know there's no God? You never know, do you?

Lalit

It is time for you to be added to the list of serious reactionary thinkers. If that is not already the case, that is.

kevembuangga

Sounds like a "sex of angels" problem. Meanwhile in the "real world" (?) more effective trouble is heating up... https://medium.com/deep-code/situational-assessment-2017-trump-edition-d189d24fc046#.k1dsirkjl

iFruit
Replying to:
Candide III

This you point out “most good intellectual output, like for example this blog” are there to remind us Spandrell's strongest suit isn't humility. :) Easy to pass over it. When everywhere it's full of egomanic status-maximizers ranging from unhinged narcissism to high sociopathy to psychopathy, all of whom make sure to constantly exhibit humbleness (it works with their court of adoring blockheads), even simple outspoken vanity can be seen as, comparatively, humbleness. Differently said: when you see somebody boast their skills this way, at least it's not narcissistic maniacs who live to manipulate you.

iFruit
Replying to:
kevembuangga

Medium.com the new elected place for egomaniacal status-maximizers and arch-spiralling signalers. No thankz.

Steel T Post
Replying to:
Spandrell

Insist in the literal truth of the Bible? Only if one insists on creating more Atheists. "Indeed I think that every Christian sect gives a great handle to Atheism by their general dogma that, without a revelation, there would not be sufficient proof of the being of a god." ~Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, from Monticello, April 11, 1823 The invasive middle-eastern cult of Christianity worked as a cultural glue in Europe only when the Catholic Church heavily suppressed reading of the Bible. For Christianity to work well again, which requires ignoring much of the Jewish Bible and elevating our own European cultural Tradition above it, you'll have to smash the printing press. Why not stubbornly insist that the old European Gods—whom are still on our lips today every Teus'-day, Woden's-day, Thor's-day, and Frīge's-day—are all as figuratively real as Santa Claus? Nobody believes in a literal Santa, yet we spend almost four weeks a year and billions of dollars celebrating Santa Claus and Reindeer as a culture. How we "believe in" and create a weeks-long Holy-Day season around Santa and Reindeer is our path forward. So be good for goodness sake!

Steel T Post
Replying to:
Candide III

Probably not. "If this can be tolerated, what cannot?"

iFruit
Replying to:
Spandrell

"Just say it’s true, the way your lunch is true." This is gonna end up in my "citations" text file. Because it's so spot-on. However, what I don't like is conflation of social/political/public/pragmatic/you-choose-the-name epistemology with philosophical epistemology. "Truth" hasn't the same meaning for the girl who, soon as the alpha that had given her some hope unmistakably kicked her ass "fell again in love" with the beta she had super-quickly left when the alpha had courted her a little and I. There are these people, who are born with defective social modules in their brains, and live to explore, discover, and go after another "truth". They are artists, philosophers. When I say philosophers, this includes people like William Shockley and James Watson (who can easily be mistaken for menbots and technicians, but are radically diverse deep down). There is a % of people who isn't socially healthy: in their minds, what's socially true and "works" and what's sensibly true and observable remain parted. They live in two worlds. They are likely to become artists, to depict or shoot or recount in words their own world and their own truth or non-analytic philosophers. When you watch serious films or read serious novels, each of these authors and sometimes each of their works is a world. Since no-body else was telling their truth, they felt the need, and decided to do that on their own. In the introduction to a biography of Shockley, somebody writes that it remains sheltered in mystery what led the man to make the claims he made, thus facing devastating social retribution and being degraded to pariah. See, the author of that comment (a journalist, no wonder) has ONE truth, like (we presume) all those lip-plate wearers. But some have two truths. And some, like Ted Kaz... how on earth was Unabomber named, have one, the OTHER ONE, the one that doesn't work. Different types of minds have different sorts of hunger, and need different meals. I wrote "different" but I should have written "diverse". Philosophy and epistemology strictu sensu have nothing to do with society politics and what works, just like free minds have nothing to do with "the community" and groupthink (and Nobel Prizes, and jobs in the mainstream media, ...). The idea of truth as observable reality borne by science in last 2 thousand years has nothing to do with our day's political and social scene. Now I'll go watch that video, hoping it carries subtitles, lol.

Spandrell
Replying to:
Steel T Post

善哉

iFruit
Replying to:
Steel T Post

Yes, looking at words' roots and etymology will uncover a lot. Like the different meanings of "order" in "to give an order", "to set in order", "to be in working order" ;)... Enough to tell you that society is based on enforcement, slavery, power. Or it becomes anarchy. Word: "Old English word; related to Old High German wort, Old Norse orth, Gothic waurd, Latin verbum, Sanskrit vratá command" Every word was an order. (And in the Bible, the Word of God is always an order too).