Conflict

Spandrell

Nick Land yesterday said I was "conflicted".

I guess I am. Running into writer's block perhaps.

When you pursue a line of thought long enough you tend to lose track of where you're going, and end up reaching conclusions you won't necessarily agree with if you actually started thinking about it from scratch.

I do generally like to keep things simple, so let's reboot and try to start again.

Why are we reactionaries? Because modernity sucks. In what way? Well, let's count the ways:

1. Women are unpleasant, men are unmanly

2. Foreigners everywhere

3. Dysgenics

4. Corruption

5. Aesthetic taste has collapsed

Which can be summed up as a lack of asabiyyah in general. Reactionary thought is based in the idea that modernity is corrosive to asabiyyah  and thus will lead to societal collapse and general misery.

There are two lines of reactionary thought. One is the traditionalist branch, and the futurist branch.

Or perhaps there's three. There's the religious/traditionalist branch, the ethnic/nationalist branch, and the capitalist branch.

The religious want to go back to an idealized religious society, where a common faith provides asabiyyah . Go to the Orthosphere and take a look. I wouldn't say they have any real-world model to push for. But hey when you have faith you don't need empirical examples, do you?

The nationalist branch wants a mono-ethnic society, believing that a sense of kinship provides asabiyyah. Often cited models are Finland or Japan. A mono-ethnic society in which conflict is pushed outward so the ingroup can be more pleasant and cooperative. The time that Koreans spend hating the Japanese is time they don't spend hating each other.

There is a certain overlap between the nationalists and the religious. There's this idea that kinship by itself isn't strong enough. And there's this fascination with the Mormon model. Kinship is a very messy concept, and it's not at all clear that people respond to kinship strongly enough. If it did, there would be no need for religion, right? Nicholas Wade wrote this book on religion being asabiyyah, having evolved as a necessary social glue.

The capitalist branch argue that asabiyyah depends on economic incentives, and smart government policy. The obvious model is Singapore. Moldbug used to be here. Not so sure he still is. Nick Land is certainly here.

The point is that you don't need an ethereal sense of societal brotherhood if you let the market work properly. Asabiyyah will grow out of aggregate self-interest. You might believe that's all that's necessary, and be some anarcho-capitalist twat. Or you might believe that the government must ensure that people respond to economic incentives by working against tribalist psychological biases, which is what Singapore does.

If I had to say where I am, is the nationalist branch. But I used to be more on the capitalist camp. The capitalist argument is quite powerful: ethnic kinship is cool but the necessary corollary of it is National-socialism. Or socialism itself. We used to have more asabiyyah than now, but we also had no economic growth. For all the nostalgia for the Victorian age, who wants to go back there? Who prefers ethnic solidarity and purpose to modern medicine and technology? Reaction is based on a fear of where we are headed, certainly not on a dislike of how life is right now. Yes the proles have become barbarians, but they never were that pleasant anyway. Ethnic solidarity by itself is not necessarily conducing of scientific progress and economic growth. And those I agree are good things.

But the capitalism argument is to allow the market to do its bidding. But what is its bidding right now? In the last decades it has been towards a re-concentration of wealth. Plutocracy is coming back with force. And yeah the plutocrats have made a lot of good stuff. The argument goes that they might do even better stuff if the government wasn't messing with their ambitions through socialistic regulations. Imagine all the economic growth they might unleash if they were allowed to employ the proles for peanuts! What's wrong with slave camps if you get cheap cotton, huh?

Besides the hate and contempt I feel for the plutocrats (which you could say it's just envy), the problem I see with plutocracy is that I don't like the trends I see. For one I don't see most plutocrats pushing for a system to maximize economic growth. What I see is them pushing for endless migration of cheap labor for them to use. Even if I didn't care about the left half of the bell curve having their wages depressed, I do object to Brazilization of the whole world. It seems to me, and many of us, that the plutocrats aren't fighting to expand human wealth. They are fighting to become an endogamic caste lording over the mongrel masses. They want to become the equivalent of the Mexican ruling class. They want to have their status guaranteed for generations. I don't blame them, humans are status driven. The corollary of female hypergamy is that all men want to be the top dog. And even is there is no end to status competition, a caste system is the best solution. The only way to guarantee your status in the top is that everyone else is  biologically upwardly immobile.

And if that doesn't work, what we are seeing is a hard push for the AI singularity. If you can't have cheap labor to lord over, they'll have no labor at all. Robin Hanson's "ems" theory is positively apocalyptic. I don't know how feasible it is, but we do have increasing automation these days. Of course the irony here is that we are automating productive processes with the end purpose of selling the products to someone. But if economic logic says that most people aren't employable and so should have no income, then who are we selling all this stuff to? Why produce it at all?

People acquire stuff because, 1: they produce something in exchange, or 2: they can take it by force. Taking it by force might be old fashioned banditry, or sophisticated politics, where a branch of the ruling class funnels stuff to you with the hidden assumption that if you're not given stuff you might become a violent mob. Of course the military significance of popular mobs today is close to nil. But most people haven't noticed that yet. Our political arrangements are based on the military balance of the early 19th century. If you don't give us democracy we'll rebel à la 1848. But of course no popular uprising could succeed today if the state was willing to fight back. The military today does depend on the loyalty of the soldiery, which also feeds upon a sense of ethnic solidarity. But for how long?

At the end of the day, political systems don't depend on productive capability per se, or in ideology. They depend on military technology. A lot of assumptions about the future are based in the idea that people won't go to war anymore so it's all about economic interaction. But it's not, in the end it's still about how has the bigger guns. Can a plutocratic Brazilianized US hold to their military superiority? Or will tight-knit Finland's superior asabiyyah allow it to develop a superior automated army that allows them to resist USG interference? Or will capitalism reach the singularity, develop Skynet, be destroyed by it, and leave the world to the Mormons, Amish and Haredim who kept on breeding while everyone else enjoyed the Matrix being amused to their death?

In the end that's all that matters.

Nick Land

"A lot of assumptions about the future are based in the idea that people won’t go to war anymore so it’s all about economic interaction. But it’s not, in the end it’s still about how has the bigger guns." -- OK, but bigger guns come out of capitalism.

Spandrell
Replying to:
Nick Land

Tell that to comrade Stalin

Nick Land
Replying to:
Spandrell

... who was largely armed by America (lend-lease), ripped off German weapons (the AK-47 was an StG 44, RPGs were Panzerfausts), and atomic techno-science passed on by 'idealists' (the Rosenbergs).

Spandrell
Replying to:
Nick Land

Guns have to be big, they don't have to be yours. And they don't even have to be the biggest, just big enough really. As the Soviets proved and Chinese have confirmed recently, open capitalistic places aren't very good at keeping secrets.

Nick Land
Replying to:
Spandrell

For sure, but structural parasitism is eventually quite fragile, as the history of the Cold War demonstrated.

RS-prime

I don't really believe they are trying to Brazilize. It's an error to cognize Brazil as some sort of fixed destination when it isn't even stable ; it's presumably rather dysgenic. So the end result is Eloi have to live in heavily guarded enclaves (while also undergoing dysgenesis themselves, how cheerful). In return for this they get what, Morlocks who are, in a few generations, of no utility without being outfitted with electroshock collars or something. I don't really see the appeal. In the end the Eloi are going to want many, many miles of free space to drive around and have fun in, so what they will do will amount to (literal, plain old-fashioned, totally non-'cyber') secession. There are probably other end results possible to exist, but stably engineering them is just too complicated. Our Western rulers are basically just dumb, neurotic, and banal. I mean, they do understand how to be vicious and aggressive, about simple, old-school things like oil. Their IQs are OK-ish but they're incurious and have limited depth of feeling and architectural instinct, that's why we end up with this bizarro-neurotic, yet banal idiocy that doesn't benefit even the hegemon (secular Jews) in the long run, or even the medium run. Jim's description of modern Western history is pretty right, it's a bunch of hysterics and hectics trying to outflank each other. All these drones and paralyzing sonic lasers and shit are probably less relevant than you think. This cool gear is going to make Eloi feel happy when half the world looks halfway like Monrovia (see the VICE short)? They DO like the Manhattan/Frisco vs Detroit/ mass incarceration setup. --But they WON'T like it when it is like five times more intense, dude! And no, they haven't thought it through. They lack imagination, except only within their little spherules of hectic yammering. Accordingly, they'll basically be like whoa, what the fuck just happened? That's what they'll be saying in 20-40 years (usual caveats about the modest possibility of a post-scarcity world apply). I really think they are starting to dislike it even now. Like you say, our lives ain't too shabby. But everyone knows about the sprawling incarceration, for instance. (Over here. I know you don't have it so much in Europe.) Also, in 70 years they (Eloi) will have zero fine cultural production if they continue with their dysgenesis and don't achieve AI. This will be a plain fact of life visible to everybody. So basically you're wrong. What's the point of creating an endogamous caste that is rapidly shrinking, slowly worsening, and gazing out upon a (deepening and probably dangerous) earthly hell that it freely chose to create? Is that your idea of a good time?

Spandrell
Replying to:
RS-prime

Not my idea, but it's what they're trying to achieve. Brazil is dysgenic but it has been quite stable for some time. The upper class isn't migrating en masse so they must enjoy travelling in helicopters to avoid the Morlocks.

RS-prime

The real question is, can a forceful critic like us actually make anything better? It's like you're always saying, the problem is the implementation, the vested interests between here and there, etc. Will our insights be bastardized, fanaticized by others? I mean, if you and I could sit down with Mencius and Jim or something, no fanatics, and make a grand peace treaty, and have a Varangian Guard or something, that would probably work out OK. Actually, pretty darn well I bet. But how can we, or really anyone, restore order in a decent, halfway-humane process? It's very hard to be optimistic. I mean, I can barely make a living and keep my apartment clean, man.

tmp
Replying to:
RS-prime

Nit: Morlocks were the overlords and the Eloi were lazy idiots.

Spandrell
Replying to:
RS-prime

You tell me. I wouldn't be writing a blog if I were optimistic. In the end all we can do is reach an understanding on how close the shit is to hitting the fan, and plan our personal lives accordingly. After it happens then someone might listen to what we are saying. Probably won't though.

George

The problem is, you don't know what you want, and you don't even want what you think you want. The Christian holds all the trump cards: meaning, purpose, truth, salvation. You atheist "intellectuals" have: meaning (lol), purpose (lol), truth (lol), damnation. It is easy to predict who will win this war. Why don't you go enjoy another cocktail and leave civilisation to people who are actually in the game.

Spandrell
Replying to:
George

You also have the trump cards of: failure, defeat, apostasy and death. I wish you all the luck kissing Qurans and the feet of gipsy criminals. And Simon, why change your name from a Biblical to a Greek one? Not cool.

RS-prime

> Not my idea, but it’s what they’re trying to achieve. Naw, man, they just don't even know. They don't study. One of the weirdest things about America, that you might not know but that kind of affects/infects the world indirectly, is how perverse the incentives are for students. Everyone just crams for the monthly exam, semesterly exam. I got shit grades, boyo, shit. Truly bad. Then on the actual Exam of What You Actually Learned Like Permanently (the GRE), I waste everybody. I know that is simply not done in England -- the placing of far more emphasis on grades than on culminative exams, I mean -- and I don't think y'all act that way on the Continent either. By the bye, hardly anyone ever notices or discusses it. Non-issue. Evidently, in Germany fairly ordinary people read long newspaper polemics between like fucking Habermas and Ernst Nolte about the real meaning and true perspective of the 20th century wars. That is pretty foreign to our whole mindset. And while Nolte's existence is fairly scandalous in Germany, one simply couldn't publish him at all here, whereas he is just-publishable as an op/ed in Frankforter Allgemeine Zeitung. > Brazil is dysgenic but it has been quite stable for some time. The upper class isn’t migrating en masse so they must enjoy travelling in helicopters to avoid the Morlocks. I mentioned before, it probably wasn't on the European news much, but ~7 years ago it was this huge meme over here that Mexico was on the verge of sociopolitical collapse. It's not Iraq but it is pretty wild out there. Well, so in the end it didn't collapse, but check back in 20 years. The Brazilian favelas started as a mass phenomenon in the 50s-60s as I recall. Those people had once been peasants. Can't give figures, but I think you are wrong, things probably are getting worse there in terms of, say, the pop fraction living in favelas, not to speak of allele frequencies . . . except things got better lately -- economically -- because of the raw materials boom (Asian demand). I hardly need add that 15 years of elevated aluminum prices doesn't amount to much, ultimately, compared to mutation load. Probably makes things worse in the end, like having three beers before doing your chores. In any case, big picture, I'm sure the fraction living in favelas is now many times higher than it was in 1970 -- so how exactly are you defining 'stable'. It occurs to me that Asian demand may also be what averted social collapse in Mexico. Also I believe most ordinary Whites live in the north of Brazil and did not have many non-Whites around until recent decades. So they are experiencing the same racial changes as us. But there must have been plenty of ordinary Whites in Rio. Don't know what their arrangements were (I fear I am ignorant of this entire subject, in fine), but I've posted at Foseti's before about de facto residential segregation existing in that country. Like enforced, grassroots enforced de facto segregation. Not the kind of unenforced stuff found in US & EU. Anyway, there cannot be many who actually have the helicopters. I assume ordinary Eloi who need to get downtown in Rio just have bulletproof limos with plenty of guns and guards. Which equals 6.2x less utils than zooming it in a chopper.

George
Replying to:
Spandrell

I am rather easy to parse. I believe it is time to back up words with actions - NO MORE THINKING ABOUT POLITICS - I would like to quit blogs altogether but the intellectual isolation of the backwater fuckland that I am living in would be mentally devastating. Goodbye, spandrell. I may even become a good enough Christian to start praying for you soon.

Spandrell
Replying to:
George

I wish you all the best backing up words with actions. Really.

RS-prime

Dude we are both on record as agnostics. And in fact I think about the ultimate meaning of life and stuff pretty regularly, thanks.

BIGDOUG
Replying to:
RS-prime

the only way the plutocrats get displaced is by the man on the white horse--by force. only after, can we change anything for real

RS-prime
Replying to:
RS-prime

Ever notice all my posts about the little ethical system of yoo-dai-monism, eudaimonia being sometimes rendered as 'blessedness'? Happen to know what a 'daimon' is? Alrenous and I disdain any sort of blustery materialism as much as you do, and so probably does Spandrell. So did Aristotle, who I guess you think is in the zeroeth circle of hell or something as per Dante. Well, I happen to like him.

Spandrell
Replying to:
RS-prime

Don't worry about Simon, he just likes being a dick. It's his mission as a Christian. He's a Dick for Jesus.

Spandrell
Replying to:
RS-prime

It's not my impression that the average German, let alone Brit, is better educated that the average white American. You yanks have this complex about your education system. It's not that bad at all. Brazil or Mexico may well go to hell in short notice, that doesn't take from the allure of having ethnically distinct classes who remind you of your superior birth every day you see them mowing your lawn. I agree it's not a conscious plan of the Western elite, but it does seem quite inevitable to me. The Indians had it right. Everybody likes castes.