The Evolution of the Sexual Marketplace

Spandrell

I always say that I find East Asians to be much more realistic in general. They're less likely to comment about what they know nothing about, less likely to engage in empty virtue signaling, less likely to make up stuff in general. Less full of shit. Of course this is a relative term, there's plenty of Asians which are full of it, especially those in the media, politica or academia. But the amount of shit in circulation is an order of magnitude smaller than in the West.

Personally I believe that is because of the lack of organized religion for centuries, and because of widespread poverty up until very recently. Life in Asia has always been harsh. Every few decades you got a widespread famine. And lacking a religious establishment, being holier-than-thou didn't get you fed. So the penalties for noticing things were much smaller than in the West. This has changed a bit since the late 19th century, when European empires invaded the area. Democratic politics and mass media by definition promote form over substance. But the lack of a general tradition of generating feel-good nonsense has limited the damage.

See this very nice graph that is going around the Japanese internet. How the Sexual Marketplace has evolved since the 1950s. Forgive the awkward captions, but I'm busy with the book.

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So in the old days, the top 80% of men and women got married, the rest became omegas and spinsters, and that was it. Then Free Love (the Japanese term for what we call the Sexual Revolution) happened. The top 40% of men started dating the 80% of women, leaving the rest of men shafted, but in the end women got bored of the carousel and ended up marrying men of their league, so 80% of men kept getting married, as well as 80% of women. Today, though, 20% of men fuck 60% of women. The rest of men occasionally date the 40 to 60 percentile of attractiveness (4s to 6s in redpill speech), but mostly subsist on a date of free and high quality porn, idols and  romance videogames. 40% of women also get no action whatsoever.

Note that Japan has had no Roissy. No manosphere. No red pill. These people can't read English nor are interested in the American blogosphere. This is just regular Japanese people noticing things and discussing them freely on the internet. And the conclusion is accurate, concise, and very fair. Note how there's no attempt at blaming women for being all bitches, or blaming men for being all children. They understand that it's both. Men are so addicted to porn that it has raised the floor of minimum beauty that women need to have to get men interested. And that social media has made women expand their areas of gossip, so are know subject to attack by more vain women, making them insist in only fucking the top men, lest they get shunned out of female society by fucking normal men. I like the idea of the vanity spiral.

The analysis isn't perfect; e.g. no mention of the effect of women's entering the labor market. And some factors are peculiarly Japanese, in particular the "idol" market and the pervasive romance videogames and comics. But the general situation isn't that different from Western countries. There's lots of articules and TV programs about how the Japanese "aren't interested in sex". Like the West isn't fully packed and bursting with incels of every sex and color. Again, the difference is that the Japanese notice, and talk about it, while in the West no one is allowed to notice anything that contradicts the narrative that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and we are making progress at every front. The few that do notice that something wrong end up forming internet groups blaming 100% of the problem on a single sex, as if the whole society wasn't rotten from the root.

silas

"less likely to comment about what they don’t know anything about"

Severian

I had a friend come back on a short visit, he lives in Japan and is married to a Japanese woman, we went drinking with the old gang of friends and he commented how good it is to hear people discussing politics again, apparently it is not something people do in Japan. He is a leftist thou, but not going full sjw.

Spandrell
Replying to:
Severian

I must admit I miss it too, but generally speaking it's for the best. If you wanna signal you buy a better car or go fishing.

Erebus

It's not just porn. What does the book say about prostitution, hostess bars, massage parlours, etc.? That sort of thing couldn't possibly be more popular out here. (Well, right now I'm in Juso, Osaka, so I suppose the fact that every other business is a den of prostitution is to be expected. But even very small cities have popular red light districts...) That the Japanese "aren’t interested in sex" is, of course, false.

Spandrell
Replying to:
Erebus

That has always been common, yet didn't stop people from marrying. Porn and eroge really are making lots of men not bothering with women at all.

The Evolution of the Sexual Marketplace | Reaction Times

[] Source: Bloody Shovel []

Hurlock
Replying to:
Spandrell

This can actually be framed from an economics perspective (and I can't resist doing it). After feminism came to Japan and women were "liberated" from male control, this essentially raised the cost of "bothering with women" for men. Suddenly women are not just allowed, but even to an extent encouraged to not obey men, male authority is lost and it becomes much harder to control women (since it has been basically outlawed). This makes submissive women who are good wife material a rarity and in fact if you want to get any woman at all, you have to try much harder than before, because of women's hypergamous nature. When women are allowed to have any say in the selection of their partners, this skews the sexual marketplace in favor of the alpha males and makes effective polygamy more widespread. For everyone who is not an alpha (the majority of the population) the cost of acquiring a female partner is now greater than ever. This problem isn't that obvious until you get cheap replacements for female companionship, like porn and the like. And the reason why porn and all the weird stuff japanese omegas are into became so big is precisely because this increase in the cost of acquiring a wife increased so dramatically in the few decades after WWII. When the price of one good goes up, this creates incentives for innovation of substitutes which were previously not viable when the good was cheaper. So suddenly you have this huge market for porn appearing because most men are no longer getting any action, or at least it is much more difficult for them to get any than it was before. And after a substitute such as porn appears, which is substantially cheaper to acquire than the real thing is nowadays, more and more people don't even bother with the real thing. Now, I am not sure agree that porn leads to rising standards for men. I think in a post-sexual liberation society, even though you can fap to hot women in videos, you'd still go for a real woman (even an unattractive one) if the cost of acquiring her isn't very high (compared to porn). This is because in a society where the top men get multiple women, getting any woman at all actually raises your status more than it did in a pre-sexual liberation society. After all, back then as long as your life wasn't a total trainwreck you were pretty certain to get a wife, while today it is much, much harder. The main factor which disincentivizes beta males from going for unattractive women is that those women are allowed to exercise their hypergamy. So they naturally always want to go for the alpha males, even if they are way out of their league, which makes them neglect beta males (as any woman is naturally prone to, unless forced by the social framework). This makes it harder for beta males to get even unattractive women, thus they don't bother, basically I am repeating myself at this point. You get the idea.

Spandrell
Replying to:
Hurlock

I do like the social aspect that the Japanese emphasize in here. So you got arranged marriages until 1950 or so. Alphas have mistresses, even married ones, but overtly there's a sense of balance, and everyone can get married, even if their partners aren't very exciting. Then people start dating and getting married by their own account. Women compete for alphas, and the fact that women are competing for alphas makes other women also want to compete for alphas, even if they're not that into alphas themselves; but at any rate going for a beta makes you lose status in female society. Beta men start to find that women are more trouble to get than they thought; a market of virtual romance provides cheap and easy subsitutes; beta men find it even harder to bother attracting women. Virtual romance provides incredibly hot girls so going for a homely one makes you lose status with your friends, even if your standards are even that high. And so every sex is signaling itself into extinction; while third worlders force their children to marry their cousins and that's the end of it.

jamesd127
Replying to:
Spandrell

"That has always been common, yet didn’t stop people from marrying. Porn and eroge really are making lots of men not bothering with women at all. " If your wife obeys you, cooks for you, mops the floor, is your companion and help, and is always sexually available - that is something porn and brothels cannot provide. If your wife is a pain, who wants a pain hanging around? I find it hard to believe that women compete for status by fucking alphas. Ninety percent of the time, they are keeping it secret that they are fucking the alpha, because they supposedly have a boyfriend, and they know the alpha has a regular girl and a couple of back up girls that are way ahead of them in his booty call list Women just like to fuck alphas. Fucking is way better than status. It is way better than anything.. Trouble is that if a woman fucks an alpha, it makes her not want to fuck a regular guy. Nothing to do with status, she just does not wanna. That is why male misbehavior manifests as polygyny, while female misbehavior manifests as serial monogamy.

jamesd127

I am seeing in the west a lot more serial monogamy than polygyny. Maybe it is different in Japan. But to the extent that serial monogamy outweighs polygyny, female misbehavior outweights male misbehavior.

Spandrell
Replying to:
jamesd127

Complaining with buddies about one's wife being a pain is an old-age tradition. Although they did cook; but I'm not sure women today are more of a pain than the women decades ago. The time they spend on facebook is time they don't spend nagging over every little thing. It's not that women are bragging to each other about being the booty call of some alpha, although that does happen. The idea is that women who (e.g. not being that greedy or into sex at all) may be more or less willing to compromise and marry a beta end up not doing so to avoid losing status among their friends. Everybody is out there chasing alphas so female comformity forces many to do so. You see many articles about women admitting not actually enjoying the carousel, and not even enjoying sex with alphas (or with anyone really) that much; but chasing alphas is what women do, and so they do it. You and others keep saying that all women are uncontrollably lustful, but that's nonsense. Of course many are, and we all know some; but most women don't care, unlike alphas spend effort in seducing them, which most don't.

Spandrell
Replying to:
jamesd127

Divorce rates are very low. Divorce of couples with children is very rare. If you have a family and want action on the side you get a mistress.

Outside in - Involvements with reality » Blog Archive » Chaos Patch (#113)

[] links. Alt-Right Hawley reviews (1, 2). Alt-Right economics. Regime rules for niceness. The sexual marketplace. Political spectra. “[W]e all went []

Robert Mariani

Is there any *evidence* for any of this?

Spandrell
Replying to:
Robert Mariani

No, it's all made up by an international conspiracy of white patriarchical slave-owners. Actually Japan's marriage rate is in at an all-time high, and Japanese men love having the chance of helping mop the floor and change diapers of the 5 babies they have on average.

jamesd127
Replying to:
Spandrell

Sounds like in Japan, female misbehavior is lower, male misbehavior higher, than in the west.

Robert Mariani
Replying to:
Spandrell

"Japan has a low birthrate" and the specific numbers in the post being true are completely different things

Severian

I thought about this piece and the correlation between identity and status. The gypsies of continental Europe don’t really regard themselves as low status contra the Europeans. Most people want to regard themselves as high-status, even thou they are not properly recognized as such, which they of course will be one day. Marginalized middle-easterners in Europe that can’t compete with the natives in the labour market and achieve status in that way, instead they seek to be holier than the Europeans by embracing Islam or/and crime, and many seek to be more Islamic than everyone else in their community and become islamists. Kill to party wrote about men and women embracing a new persona, which gives them an alternative ladder where they can assert status. White knights and “cool girls” are the personas of people unable to compete in the conventional status/looks race, but since low status women can sleep with high status men they can rationalize their failures as men being assholes, just as men can rationalize their failures as “all women are whores that only desire assholes”, instead of recognizing that they are unable to compete in the traditional game of male status and that women aren't men with different plumbing. I do think that men are punished much harder for believing in nonsense while many women can hold onto their delusions for longer. I guess the real thing at fault is the belief that historical proven and functional family patterns like that one of west of the Hajnal line can function in a laissez-faire sexual market. It probably "kinda" worked for the boomers because older social norms were still recognized back then.

Spandrell
Replying to:
Robert Mariani

Nobody's saying those specific numbers are exact; if they were they'd be writing books and making money instead of posting it online for lulz. But if you insist: http://news.mynavi.jp/news/2014/07/11/081/ That's a survey by a major insurance company in Japan. Blue is men, pink is women, 20, 30, 40 means people in their 20s, 30s and 40s. The question is: singles who have a romantic partner. Only 22% of single men in their 20s have a girlfriend! Numbers of women are all double those of men. Either women are more likely to brag than men (unlikely), or they're sharing some men.

baker
Replying to:
Hurlock

I agree that rising cost and dropping reward is the main reason men giving up women. In old time: You get arranged to marry a virgin in her early 20s. You own the house, the wife and the kids. The wife generally works hard. You work hard enough to support the family, but otherwise free to pursue other activities. Now: You spend a decade chasing girls. Then marry a women near 30 who has been used by a dozen chads and rich boys. You don't own anything. Legally she can leave you any time taking the house, the kids and assets. Though she may not divorce you, her legal leverage changes the whole power dynamic. The wife generally doesn't work hard. You cannot stop gaming her and satisfying her. It is a massive energy drain that leaves you little room for freedom. The only positive of modern marriage for a red-pilled man is for having kids [the blue-pilled men can at least be encouraged by their fantasy]. But is it worth it? And do the man want his boys to live in such a disadvantaged society and prolong the suffering of himself? Given the current sexual market, it is a natural and rational reaction that a lot of men are checking out. It is a period of big correction due to a big shift in socio-economic environment. Eventually there will be a rebalance of power. But we won't return to the old marriage model. I think the marriage institution is gonna dissolute, replaced by more fluid contracts.